Retaliatory Red Thumb

[Ranif88]

Good continuing discussion, a few notes on most recent observations:

1. 'already have what's needed..'(to assess a good player, etc..) - In general, yes, but two notes: (a) the leave game and timer stats often get diluted by logistics (game hang up) or life (someone at door - see numerous apology comments on board for these) such that I/we tend to lend more leniency to higher numbers in these metrics than red thumbs, and (b) those darn subjective red thumbs coming out of nowhere to clutter up a players 'reputation' as someone else is 'deciding' to play with them. Often the exceed timer metric is activated by everyone at the table who in fact are actually chatting and having a good time while playing (the opposite intent of the 'delay of game' implication), leaving multiple people with a now-must-go-work-off blemish. The true point of the general postings are if subjective, anonymous, negative inputs should be part of the player evaluation dashboard and I would offer 'no thanks' especially when the 'solution' is 'you (the awardee/recipient of the unknown/unspoken ding) can go work it off' (double penalty).

2. A comment on ELO - Back to an earlier post, the ELO system is more of a guardian angel method of statistic farming to give a general 'feel' for a player's typical behavior and should not only be used by itself but in conjunction with another objective/commentable/specific action input. ELO by itself is not a cure all but not a bad component to consider in the soup.

[ringersoll]

Right now we have the information regarding how many Green and Red Thumbs a player has been given.
It would also be interesting to know how many Green and Red Thumbs a player has GIVEN.

I don't think that I would want to play with a player who has given a lot of Red Thumbs.

[DrKarotte]

Right now we have the information regarding how many Green and Red Thumbs a player has been given.
It would also be interesting to know how many Green and Red Thumbs a player has GIVEN.

I don't think that I would want to play with a player who has given a lot of Red Thumbs.

I'd like that!

[ollyfish2002]

Good point.
Simply Number of received Red / Number of given Red Thumb.
I don't think Green Thumb will be useful.
my2p

[Ranif88]

Concur that some visibility to how many reds given by a player helps in the impression of the player, but caution must be applied if a player is stuck with several poor sports in a row and several reds given. A ratio of reds given to greens overall (or vice versa) or both totals given and recieved shows all sides. This still begs the question on "why?" regarding any red thumbs (see prior posts) but a "how many given / how often trigger is pulled" count could be useful regardless.

[latexrhombus]

I don't think it is any of my concern (nor should it be) how many red thumbs my opponent has given. The current system is fine and knowing how many red thumbs someone else has received should be enough information to determine if you are willing to play with them or not.

[Ranif88]

Understand - one of the primary points in this thread to help with deciding whether to play with 'that person' however is the subjective nature of any red thumb given without explanation to players. This is one of the major downsides of the red thumb system as it provides no usable feedback except frustration. Often those who 'drive by' and toss red thumbs do so quite often and very reactively (not all) - as such, a count of thumbs given could be a useful metric.

[nandblock]

It is a terrible idea to make public the number of red thumbs someone has given. The entire point of the system is to encourage people to report bad behaviour. If there's a public record of my giving red thumbs, then that will penalize me: people may avoid playing with me because they don't want a red thumb, or if they receive one they will assume it's me (even if it wasn't). By and large giving a red thumb is a GOOD behaviour (giving a public warning sign that someone is unpleasant to play with) which should not be penalized. The amount of damage that retaliation can do is quite small--you can only ever give one red thumb to a person, so over the long haul, if most people you play with enjoy the experience, then you'll have very few red thumbs. The system works fine and the suggestion made here would break it by discouraging people from actually providing red thumb feedback.

[Ranif88]

Understand the point. One aspect of this entire thread is to explore methods of addressing what doesnt work with the current method which is the subjective delivery of red thumbs. Lacking any rationale, anyone receiving one is left with a mixed understanding of whether the giver had a valid complaint or was just reactive; conversely, some receivers well earned the red thumb and understand why or dont care.
When one retains the system with no changes or any other method as to derive a 'feeling' of the giver to aid clarity of the situation, no solution is achieved and we are left with the same 'so what' end result that penalizes the receiver only.

A thoughtful player who has assigned red thumbs shouldn't and wouldnt care whether their number of red thumbs assigned is made public assuming that their green thumbs are as well (and most likely will swamp the number of reds awarded). In fact, your example is exactly opposite - I would be encouraged to play with you by seeing you've awarded dozens of green thumbs and a few reds. It is only the case of the subjective/reactive/vengeful (?) player that may have any issue if viewed which is the counterbalance to viewing someone's 'received' red thumbs (currently the case) and trying to 'feel' whether that person is a fair player. The point is that the focus is on the receivers which remains a mixed bag due to subjectiveness and needs some balance by looking at the 'givers' as well.

No system is perfect but again the intent here is to explore where enhancements can increase the general good feeling of all players rather than leave open areas exploited by the poor sport/bad apples (my take).

[Ranif88]

Summary metrics example -

Games : Played / Feedback Given / Feedback Received (shows general engagement of player)
Greens : Given / Received (shows general impression of acknowledging / presenting 'good' game play)
Reds : Given / Received (shows inclination or situational acknowleding of 'poor' play and more specific external impression of 'good/poor player')

These can be ratioed (number greens given/received over X games played, same for reds, etc) but as noted earlier in the threads one has to be careful with simple percentages given that only a few games may be commented on over many played, etc.

Dashboard example (note the text is not aligned due to the limitations of the posting app...):
Played / Feedback Given / Feedback Received
Games 750 672 644
Greens 660 639
Reds 12 5

Note the 'games' metric is still awkward as there is no assurance that everyone will give/get feedback for any game played - as such, one can make assumptions regarding how diligent the player is to give feedback when playing (high 'feedback given' numbers) or how they may influence others in enticing feedback (high 'received' numbers).

So, 'good' players have high givens and received for 'games', have (probably) high givens and received in 'greens', and may have some given reds and hopefully low reds received. Nothing is still preventing the drive-by red thumber from giving a red thumb, but that player's profile likely will have higher given reds and lower receieved greens to evaluate their play (vs only greens and reds received per the current system).

'Poor' players likely will have either low feedback given numbers, low greens (either given or received likely), and high reds.

In any case, more to use in evaluation vs the current limitations (recall still have timer and leave of game metrics to use as well).
Thoughts welcome.