Pythia v1.3 - visual aid helper for 7 Wonders BGA

[RicardoRix]

Why not head over to BGA Studio:

https://en.studio.boardgamearena.com

And start developing a game that EVERYONE will thank you for, and use your developer power for good rather than evil. Turn back from the dark-side, before it's too late.

[Tadachini]

Pythia v0.5 released!

Please go to https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/406492-bga-pythia to upgrade.

As usual, if you have suggestions of ideas for new functionality - let me know!

New in v0.5 - Guilds victory points
On top of each guild card in your hand, Pythia shows how much it will be worth to you in victory points.

[dschingis27]

This is probably a great piece of work that can truly enhance the game, especially for already experienced players. BUT

And this pretty scares me as I like to play 7 Wonders in BGA but if Pythia-like "helpers" spreads among players without control, it is going to change the experience in a way that doesn't suit me.

Sure, you will have to work on your strategy a lot more to retain your current rank. But as I gathered from feedback, nobody wants to do that lol.

I think you have not understood the crucial problem yet. Anyone who doesn't know about Pythia is in disadvantage, which makes the game unfair. Everyone who does know about it is forced to use it in order to make sure that he/she is not in disadvantage. So Pythia forces a certain way of playing 7Wonders that was not originally intended by the publisher nor is it enjoyed by a certain amount of players. All because we cannot control when it is used.

That said, I think it can do much more good than harm in the end. First, it makes turn-based games much more accessible and can greatly boost its number. Second, it makes the game accessible and enjoyable for a lot of players who do not like the memorization part of it. I assume this variant should be welcomed by the publisher.

BUT the publisher probably wants to have a say in this. I think this entire thread should have been posted first in the devs forum and you should probably contact the BGA developer of 7Wonders. As long as this is an unregulated add-on, it will get rejections by the majority of the community. As soon as this can be an official variant, it is great!

[RicardoRix]

A few more enhancements and maybe we can all play the game without thinking at all, wouldn't that be fun.

I assume this variant should be welcomed by the publisher.

You assume wrong. Player assistance goes against the BGA developer guidelines:
http://en.doc.boardgamearena.com/BGA_St ... assistance

III-2 Be careful about player assistance
As a rule of thumb, in order to respect the original board games, you should not introduce any player assistance feature. An assistance must not be introduced if it directly helps the player to figure out if his move is good or bad. An assistance may be introduced if it can helps the payer to figure out what moves are available.

[Storm Giant]

I'm afraid Pythia will do more harm than good, in the long run. Players using it will no longer develop memorization skill - the playing skill helpful to do well in this game, as well as many others. Even simple calculations like how many points a guild would score is provided, dumbing the thinking process even more.

But the real issue is players would be using Pythia in secret, thus, putting the non-users at a disadvantage. That somehow has a dirty feeling of 'cheating'.

[nmego]

First, it makes turn-based games much more accessible and can greatly boost its number.

It doesn't necessarily, because the "Notes" system exists, and it is an arguably better system because you have to invest work in it, But this system just skips all that work and shows you everything immediately. So, it is strictly inferior to the Notes system.

Second, it makes the game accessible and enjoyable for a lot of players who do not like the memorization part of it. I assume this variant should be welcomed by the publisher.

Now here's the thing, you don't actually have to memorize "everything". There are few key hands which you have to keep track of, and even then, there are a few key cards that you should keep track of too (Notably, the 7th and 6th hand in a 4p game, and red/green cards).
It is also part of the skill, to determine which cards you should focus on.
This does require you to put a bit of work in, which may influence your other decisions. This tool, completely kills this skill aspect of the game

Now at first I didn't like the memorization aspect. But it gets easier as you get used to it, and it is rewarding. If you can just ignore the memorization aspect and have that all that information shown to you, focusing on the strategic aspect, you get a massive advantage compared to other players who aren't using this tool.

So, not only does this tool remove an important part of the game (the memorization aspect), it also forces everyone to use it to keep the playing field even. It also violates BGA's rules:

III-2 Be careful about player assistance
As a rule of thumb, in order to respect the original board games, you should not introduce any player assistance feature. An assistance must not be introduced if it directly helps the player to figure out if his move is good or bad. An assistance may be introduced if it can helps the payer to figure out what moves are available.

It would be fine if there was an option to disable it. And it shouldn't have been released if there wasn't an option to disable it in the first place.
But as it is now, it gives even less reason to play the arena mode.

[ThreeMiler]

Yeah, I am surprised that the developers have not banned it yet.

[6element]

It is a client-only thingy, can it be detected? If yes - let (ab)users happily use it, but either very infrequently reset their ELO / Arena score or apply a multiplier (say, 0.6) to any increment of it in a game where not everybody has been using P*. Problem solved.

[Wonderful Plays]

I'm pretty sure it can be detected, but this should result in a straight up ban.

We have so many things that we could use development for: custom tournaments, custom wonders, expansions. Instead the auther is spending energy on cheats.

[Tisaac]

I don't get how this would be any different than taking a paper along with you playing the game ???

First, it makes turn-based games much more accessible and can greatly boost its number.

It doesn't necessarily, because the "Notes" system exists, and it is an arguably better system because you have to invest work in it, But this system just skips all that work and shows you everything immediately. So, it is strictly inferior to the Notes system.

Why would it be superior to invest work in taking notes ? 7Wonders is not about who is the strongest at taking note, it's about making the best decisions during the game.

Second, it makes the game accessible and enjoyable for a lot of players who do not like the memorization part of it. I assume this variant should be welcomed by the publisher.

Now here's the thing, you don't actually have to memorize "everything". There are few key hands which you have to keep track of, and even then, there are a few key cards that you should keep track of too (Notably, the 7th and 6th hand in a 4p game, and red/green cards).
It is also part of the skill, to determine which cards you should focus on.
This does require you to put a bit of work in, which may influence your other decisions. This tool, completely kills this skill aspect of the game

Why should "the memorization of some card" would influence your other decisions ?? This tool don't help you at all figuring out which card is important and which one is not, it's just showing everything on the same level. Again, the real skill is only being able to process these info to make the best decisions.

Now at first I didn't like the memorization aspect. But it gets easier as you get used to it, and it is rewarding. If you can just ignore the memorization aspect and have that all that information shown to you, focusing on the strategic aspect, you get a massive advantage compared to other players who aren't using this tool.

So you are saying some of your win are just because your opponent don't have enough memory to remember the cards that were in his hands ?? "Focusing on the strategic aspect" => again, that's the only interesting part of the game !!

So, not only does this tool remove an important part of the game (the memorization aspect), it also forces everyone to use it to keep the playing field even. It also violates BGA's rules:

III-2 Be careful about player assistance
As a rule of thumb, in order to respect the original board games, you should not introduce any player assistance feature. An assistance must not be introduced if it directly helps the player to figure out if his move is good or bad. An assistance may be introduced if it can helps the payer to figure out what moves are available.

How does this tool help you to figure out if a move is good or bad ?? It's just showing data you should know, and in no way telling you what to do with this info.
What about showing all the faces of opponent dice on Dice Forge ? Cheating ? What about showing info known on a card at Hanabi ? Cheating again ?

I'm afraid Pythia will do more harm than good, in the long run. Players using it will no longer develop memorization skill - the playing skill helpful to do well in this game, as well as many others. Even simple calculations like how many points a guild would score is provided, dumbing the thinking process even more.

So I assume you are also against all the games that show the current score during the game instead of computing them at the end, like Kingdomino, Tokaido, Takenoko, ... ???