Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

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acoustic kitty
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by acoustic kitty »

xobxela wrote: 05 December 2020, 16:41 "her / his / their" sounds like a reasonable list of pronouns to me
Agree.

Non-binary people exist and adding an extra pronoun/gender option is a respectful solution.

Alternatively, just remove the notion of gendering altogether as it really serves no positive purpose in a space like this; it only alienates. There's no need for a male/female selection in the profile. Anywhere pronouns are required, just use they/them/their. Simple, respectful and perfectly adequate for anonymous internet boardgaming.
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Een
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by Een »

acoustic kitty wrote: 07 December 2020, 06:37
xobxela wrote: 05 December 2020, 16:41 "her / his / their" sounds like a reasonable list of pronouns to me
Agree.

Non-binary people exist and adding an extra pronoun/gender option is a respectful solution.
That's already what's being done here if you take the time to look into it.
Probably not perfect or complete (BGA was created by French people not aware of this English language notion initially so we used his/her in the beginning), but it's the general case now. You can find some discussions about this in the forum if you take the time for a little research.
acoustic kitty wrote: 07 December 2020, 06:37 Alternatively, just remove the notion of gendering altogether as it really serves no positive purpose in a space like this; it only alienates. There's no need for a male/female selection in the profile. Anywhere pronouns are required, just use they/them/their. Simple, respectful and perfectly adequate for anonymous internet boardgaming.
Just here, you got caught being non-inclusive to other languages than English (probably involuntarily). Being inclusive is difficult. Reality is non-binary in many ways.
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nairobiny
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by nairobiny »

xobxela wrote: 05 December 2020, 16:41 "her / his / their" sounds like a reasonable list of pronouns to me
It's not really about what's reasonable to you. It's about what's reasonable to Sage , and xe wants to know why you refuse to use xir preferred pronouns.

Do you think Sage should be able to dictate to you what you see on your computer screen when referring to xir? How is that respectful to you, and every other user of BGA?
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KongKing123
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by KongKing123 »

Een wrote: 07 December 2020, 09:43
acoustic kitty wrote: 07 December 2020, 06:37
xobxela wrote: 05 December 2020, 16:41 "her / his / their" sounds like a reasonable list of pronouns to me
Agree.

Non-binary people exist and adding an extra pronoun/gender option is a respectful solution.
That's already what's being done here if you take the time to look into it.
Probably not perfect or complete (BGA was created by French people not aware of this English language notion initially so we used his/her in the beginning), but it's the general case now. You can find some discussions about this in the forum if you take the time for a little research.
The current system does a decent job in English, but the problem is that it cannot be applied to all languages. For example, the Dutch word for "his" is "zijn", which is the same as infinitive of the verb "to be". So in Hanabi, female players now get the equivalent of the message "these cards her green" because it's impossible to differentiate between the verb and possessive.

There are probably other languages where this causes issues (German "sein" comes to mind). Even in English this doesn't always work: "this card is his" would get replaced by "this card is her".

The only more comprehensive solution I can think of is to indeed have a global ${3rdPersonSingular_Possessive} variable which would then be set according to the user's gender. This seems a bit cumbersome, however, and would ideally need to be backported to all existing games.
nairobiny wrote: 07 December 2020, 10:07
xobxela wrote: 05 December 2020, 16:41 "her / his / their" sounds like a reasonable list of pronouns to me
It's not really about what's reasonable to you. It's about what's reasonable to Sage , and xe wants to know why you refuse to use xir preferred pronouns.

Do you think Sage should be able to dictate to you what you see on your computer screen when referring to xir? How is that respectful to you, and every other user of BGA?
I thought this post was intended to point out the absurdity of the suggestion for custom pronouns, but upon re-reading it seems it might actually be seriously proposing it.

In case it is, then yes: "their" is really enough and catering to the wishes of people who want their own special pronouns is, quite frankly, nonsense.

"Sage" kind of reminds me of Hyacinth from Keeping Up Appearances, insisting to be called Bouquet while the rest of the world just uses her actual name: Bucket.
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nairobiny
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by nairobiny »

KongKing123 wrote: 08 December 2020, 23:10 I thought this post was intended to point out the absurdity of the suggestion for custom pronouns, but upon re-reading it seems it might actually be seriously proposing it.
For the avoidance of doubt, it's the former. Debates about pronouns often suffer from a lack of precision; it's only by trying to implement what might be seen initially as a reasonable suggestion that you realise it's a nonsense.
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Stewen
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by Stewen »

Smeg wrote: 05 December 2020, 00:48
rutra1992 wrote: 04 December 2020, 23:14
Giordano Bruno 1974 wrote: 04 December 2020, 17:02

This was pretty annoying but someone managed to top it by demanding that a game be deleted and committees formed to nominate other games for deletion because they offended his / her sense of social justice.
Can you give a link to that suggestion?
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... =3&t=18303

Go woke, go broke. It never ends well, respond to one demand and more will undoubtly follow until we're all walking on eggshells to not upset the 0.01%.

Not even safe from it on a board game site.
Well, the creators of this site did a great job of listening to these guys (speaking sarcastically). Now that they opened Pandora's box, anyone is going to ask for more serious things that will aggravate this site, like removing a game just because someone didn't like it that I said "money" because it promotes blah blah blah. Then we can hope that they will never put in big games like "Cards Against Humanity".

When this site goes down because of "Politically correct", could you pass me a page like this one?
kerinbot
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by kerinbot »

It's easy to say "this shouldn't be discussed here," "this is a game board, this isn't an issue," "this isn't a problem" ...when YOU are not the one being excluded. BUT, here's the thing.

Not all gamers are male.

It shouldn't have to be said, but there it is.

Not only are some female, but some are non-binary and some are fluid. And there are a lot more non male Gamers out there than you may realize. It's not just a social issue but it can sometimes cause confusion In the midst of a game, especially for players new to the board.

It's jarring and unpleasant to be misgendered.
There Is simply no reason to continue this misogyny when there are simple solutions that could fix it, & without complicated programming or worrying that you've captured the latest list of every single flavor available.

If you don't wish to program in multiple pronoun options, I suggest that all pronouns be simply replaced with the emerging non-object, nonspecific gender pronouns "they, their, them, theirs."

This language is becoming commonplace in official, legal government documents & many other places, all over the English-speaking world.

Seems like that would be the simplest solution.

AND it would make the board more likely to grow, as it would not only please the many, many people already on the board who are hoping for this, but would ALSO prevent the board from discouraging-- literally turning away-- those who find themselves being (not so) subtly socially erased & excluded.

PLEASE VOTE to make this simple, but effective, change to improve the inclusive and welcoming potential of the onboard gaming culture, especially here, in the otherwise excellent Boardgamearena!

Thanks! :)
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N_Faker
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by N_Faker »

kerinbot wrote: 02 February 2021, 02:31 If you don't wish to program in multiple pronoun options, I suggest that all pronouns be simply replaced with the emerging non-object, nonspecific gender pronouns "they, their, them, theirs."
If you are satisfied with the standard gender-neutral pronoun, why do you insist on excluding the standard gendered pronouns?
kerinbot
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Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by kerinbot »

I don't at all object to including the standard, binary pronouns. But we are at a social stage where we don't reliably know what all the gender forms are going to be called .

So if we don't to just use a generic gender-neutral, we're always going to be leaving someone out ... unless we ask the programmers to let people enter their own pronoun which is certainly a solution that some people use .

And I agree that using "he-she-they" is better than what we have now. But it's still more complicated programming than a simple search and replace from he to they. If there are three choices the board has to be programmed to figure out what is the right one in every case and every Game interaction

But it's a reasonable argument to not ask the board programmers to complicate the entire board , when there is a simpler solution .

As a side note to the grammar... Enthusiasts... Who want to abhor this solution & cry "but no! 'THEY' is a plural! it's an Abomination to use it as a singular non-specific-gender pronoun!"

Well, to that I have two very pertinent replies .

The most important one is
1) That English is a living language, & has always been especially good at adaptation to evolving needs. This is the usage that is currently evolving and is becoming so widely accepted that it is now being used in official documentation & legal language .

But if it makes you feel better, there's also a grammatical logic to this.

2) This is not the first time that "English" has adapted a plural pronoun to a common use.

Not everyone realizes it, but the words "thou" & "ye" are not actually just a fancy form of "you ," invoked these days when someone wants to sound especially religious or old-timey.

These words were originally the singular forms of "you ." The word YOU was plural, a "you" inclusive of more than one person...or formal, Such as when one addressed God, or a particularly powerful person like a queen. Hence the "royal we."

(The German language has a construction similar to this, in the word "Sie").

But people ended up using "You" so commonly that the words "thou" and "ye" simply fell out of common use, and became uniformly replaced by the word "you ," as we use it today .

In fact, this evolved to the point where people had to reinvent a NEW word that meant "YOU, including more than one" ...and that's why the word "y'all" was invented!

But you can also see the history of the word YOU in the fact that the pronoun takes the verb forms that a plural would, even when you're addressing a single person.

So really, there's absolutely no reason why "society," (which is really just a frustrated lot of individual people coming to the same practical conclusion), can't just decide that "they" can mean a singular person , whose gender we do not yet know.

It's simple, it's logical , it's easy. We already know how to conjugate it . And it is inclusive of every single gender that the human race may yet discover.

(I think basically everyone just got tired of saying 'he or she,' when being inclusive. HE-OR-SHE Just naturally evolved to THEY and that's how we use it now.)

And best of all , to make this positive, inclusive change to the board , the ONLY programming that would be required, is to do a simple "search and replace" of the male pronouns to the gender non-specific, "they" pronouns.

One and done.

And if you find yourself resistant of this solution, because you say "but I don't WANT to be referred to by the pronoun 'THEY,' I want it to stay HE..."

Then try to be self-aware enough to realize that you don't like it for the same reason that the rest of us don't like it the way it is NOW. It's not pleasant to be misgendered...is it?

If we use "they ," then everyone will be on a level playing field, (literally), at last...
kerinbot
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Joined: 15 July 2020, 03:57

Re: Be inclusive by adding gender options and pronoun options

Post by kerinbot »

Also it's one of the logical fallacies to say that one thing can't be fixed, just because EVERYTHING can't be fixed . That's blowing the problem up so large that it can never be solved and so you get your way, by pretenting to be helpless... or just unwilling to make the effort.

To be clear...'Im not trying to make the entire board "politically correct."

A lot of the games are filled with historical land mines , and racial stereotypes , and nasty jokes and weird objectifying art (of both males and females for that matter) , and all of that is so much the way things are that we can't possibly address all of that on this board, unless we took on the entire world of board gaming .

I'm a gamer and I play all these games too and I actually love Cards Against Humanity .

But just because we can't change ALL that, doesn't mean we can't change this one thing that affects everybody .

And it's a practical difference too. If you don't approve of Cards Against Humanity, or are offended by any particular game , then you just don't play it.

Problem solved.

But the gender issue affects every single person on the board... either by being misgendered or by being misinformed of the gender of your fellow players.

It makes uncomfortable everyone who does not want to be referred to as male, to some degree.

And creates a misrepresentation of the current culture of gamers on this board .

And one simple Search and replace change could treat everyone Exactly the same .

Unlike all those other problems this one would make a BIG difference for a relatively small amount of effort . In terms of cost-benefit analysis , it seems to me Like a win-win overall for the board.. And everyone playing on it .
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