Help needed: Is this considered cheating?

[Setsuna Jr]

How about games that base on this kind of strategy? Would being a good bridge player (which means you know hidden information conveyed by bidding in particular way, according to chosen system) be considered cheating on BGA? If not this case shouldn't be considered as well.

Thank you very much for making the idea more professional, appreciate it

[Setsuna Jr]

What you have presented is too vague to give a proper answer.

Can you link the report?

Hi there, what is vague? I can help clear it. I do not want to show private information since there are three more people in the game, I need their permission as well.

You could clear it by showing what the moderator said. For now this is nothing but heresay.

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Digging a little, I can confirm that OP's account of his moderation is accurate. And I agree that this moderation makes no sense.

Thank you for pointing this out, I should have posted the report from the moderator, since it was sent to me only, I can decide myself. Here is the report:

"
Mar 21st 2021 3:53 • • Give a -1 Karma penalty:

20/03 04:10:39 Setsuna Jr: let's make a rule ok?
20/03 04:10:44 Setsuna Jr: fsnam?
20/03 04:11:24 Setsuna Jr: ok. do you want to make a rule between us?
20/03 04:12:06 Setsuna Jr: give the other the big card, if you only have one big card
20/03 04:12:27 Setsuna Jr: 4A and dragon and phoenix are considered big cards

the TICHU game is in alpha. the players who agree to play this game do so in order to provide their opinions, to point out the problems encountered, in order to be able to finalize the development of this game;
not to circumvent the rules of origin of the game, which will lead to you being penalized very severely because it is considered cheating.
"

[Setsuna Jr]

but I think, once people know these strategy, it is very easy to figure out themselves.

Is it though? This strategy is good but not "fully optimal", so you have no guaranty that your partner will stop at the same level of thinking.

I don't know Tichu past the basic rules, but the most common situation statistically is that both of you have a single A, so if both of you apply this strategy, you just exchange A and lose on the opportunity to improve your hands. Indeed, if you have a single A, there is a 40% chance that your partner has a single A too, a 35% chance the your partner has no A at all, and only a 25% chance that they have 2 or 3 A.

It seems to me that it's a very bad idea for both players to apply this strategy, as the chance of wasting your exchange of card is quite high (While a single player of the team applying the strategy is definitely very positive).

Hi, MoiMagnus. I forget to thank you for the probability analysis part. But I think it is a difficult classical probability. The number may not be as easy to figure out. Maybe the best way to do it is by simulation. My coding skill are fading, I might do it later today to see what we will get

Other than improving your hands, one thing I want to add is that TICHU allow calling tichu for more points, that means the value of information is scalable.

Another example would be wishing advantage, if you know your mate gave you the only A, then it is very safe to wish for A, that helps alot for being a successful tichu or for a double run.

Exchange an Ace is not something optimal, but it still has some value. For example you then know your team have weak hands, you may choose not to block an overpower tichu, to prevent him from fishing your powerful cards, so that one of you might survive a double run attempt.

Hope it helps

[MoiMagnus]

Hi, MoiMagnus. I forget to thank you for the probability analysis part. But I think it is a difficult classical probability. The number may not be as easy to figure out. Maybe the best way to do it is by simulation. My coding skill are fading, I might do it later today to see what we will get

You're welcome. I've done my math more precisely (and corrected an error in my previous post, I should have written 45/30/25, not 40/35/25), and my results are:

If you have exactly one A, then the probability of
+ Of your partner having the 3 other A is slightly lower than 1/27 = 4%
+ Of your partner having 2 A is slightly lower than 6/27 = 22%
+ Of your partner having exactly 1 A is slightly higher than 12/27 = 44%
+ Of your partner having no A is slightly lower than 8/27 = 30%

Reasoning:
First consider the simple case where instead of dealing cards as usual, you randomly give each card one by one to each player, without guaranty of each player getting the same number of cards.
Then, if you get the A of sword and not other A, each of the other A has three possibilities, so 3*3*3 = 27 possibilities in total. Out of those 27 possibilities, you can list all of them and look in which of the case you are, and obtain the probabilities above.
But now, we have to correct for the initial hypothesis, as we have the guaranty that every player is getting the same number of cards, which mess up everything. Fortunately, 14 cards in hand is a lot, so the difference should not be more than a few % each time, hence the "slightly lower" and "slightly higher" on each of the cases.

Exact computation is indeed a lot of work, so simulation would be much easier.

[aesche]

If BGA seriously punishes pregame defined conventions about fair moves in team games, they probably better would not publish any such games at all... that‘s ridiculous.

It would be another story, for example, if keywords were used (though hardly proofable ofc) that have a meaning, but giving meanings to actions must be allowed. Otherwise you might as well punish about every Hanabi player for every game played.

[whatshisbucket]

Exact computation is indeed a lot of work, so simulation would be much easier.

The exact computation here is actually fairly simple, since we only need to consider the placement of three cards. We are placing them in 3 of 42 buckets, so there are a total of (42 choose 3) = 11480 possible placements.

14 of these buckets are in your partner's hand, so the chance of them having all three aces is (14 choose 3)/11480 = 13/410 ≈ .032
28 buckets are not. Then there are (14 choose 2)(28 choose 1) ways to put 2 aces in your partner's hand and 1 elsewhere, for a probability of 91/410 ≈ .222
Similarly there are (14 choose 1)(28 choose 2) ways to put 1 ace in your partner's hand, for a probability of 189/410 ≈ .461
And of course the probability of your partner having none is (28 choose 3)/11480 = 117/410 ≈ .285

[whatshisbucket]

This is beside the point of course, the moderation decision here is still ridiculous, as the players in question explicitly informed their opponents of their convention. In my opinion to play this game without using the mechanics available to share as much information as possible is quite silly.

[N_Faker]

Mar 21st 2021 3:53 • • Give a -1 Karma penalty:

20/03 04:10:39 Setsuna Jr: let's make a rule ok?
20/03 04:10:44 Setsuna Jr: fsnam?
20/03 04:11:24 Setsuna Jr: ok. do you want to make a rule between us?
20/03 04:12:06 Setsuna Jr: give the other the big card, if you only have one big card
20/03 04:12:27 Setsuna Jr: 4A and dragon and phoenix are considered big cards

the TICHU game is in alpha. the players who agree to play this game do so in order to provide their opinions, to point out the problems encountered, in order to be able to finalize the development of this game;
not to circumvent the rules of origin of the game, which will lead to you being penalized very severely because it is considered cheating.

Tichu was in beta at game start and when the penalty was applied, and was therefore available to the general userbase.
This was a ranked game between beginners and apprentices.

If it had been in alpha I would argue that game conduct rules should not have to be adhered to as to broaden the testing to outlier cases. Though, this of course should usually be agreed to beforehand or done by oneself.

I was told by the moderator that I discussed a strategy with my mate before the game started, I am considered cheating, and would be severely punished by doing that.

Emphasis on the bolded part, this is false. Setsuna Jr proposed the "rule" after the game had already started.

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After actually assessing this moderation with its copious amount of incorrect information, I will have to say that the moderator had some cause for the moderation. Though basing the reasoning on it being an alpha game, which it wasn't, is absurd.

[aesche]

Well, even if a game is going on already, as long as it‘s not simultaneously as the exact action as under debate is taking place, it still must be totally fine to state such things. Just as the other guy taught his partner after a mistake, that‘s pretty much the same. Like you could go in, and say nothing, assuming the partner knows whatever convention. Then you realise he doesn‘t, so you tell him to make sure that next time he does. Some of these things even are included in the rules as strategy suggestions. Like if your partner declares Tichu, you must not beat his tricks, or if he calls a Tichu early, you pass over your best card. So if you don‘t do that, you very likely get called out for it, and that‘s totally fair, because otherwise you might as well give up the game / watch how you are going to lose.

[Setsuna Jr]

Yes, my bad, I did not notice that even though I started the conversation before the game started, but it was started during the conversation. However, that is not the point. If bringing up a convention is cheating, then it was cheating. If not, then it is not no matter when I said it.

Mar 21st 2021 3:53 • • Give a -1 Karma penalty:

20/03 04:10:39 Setsuna Jr: let's make a rule ok?
20/03 04:10:44 Setsuna Jr: fsnam?
20/03 04:11:24 Setsuna Jr: ok. do you want to make a rule between us?
20/03 04:12:06 Setsuna Jr: give the other the big card, if you only have one big card
20/03 04:12:27 Setsuna Jr: 4A and dragon and phoenix are considered big cards

the TICHU game is in alpha. the players who agree to play this game do so in order to provide their opinions, to point out the problems encountered, in order to be able to finalize the development of this game;
not to circumvent the rules of origin of the game, which will lead to you being penalized very severely because it is considered cheating.

Tichu was in beta at game start and when the penalty was applied, and was therefore available to the general userbase.
This was a ranked game between beginners and apprentices.

If it had been in alpha I would argue that game conduct rules should not have to be adhered to as to broaden the testing to outlier cases. Though, this of course should usually be agreed to beforehand or done by oneself.

I was told by the moderator that I discussed a strategy with my mate before the game started, I am considered cheating, and would be severely punished by doing that.

Emphasis on the bolded part, this is false. Setsuna Jr proposed the "rule" after the game had already started.

-

After actually assessing this moderation with its copious amount of incorrect information, I will have to say that the moderator had some cause for the moderation. Though basing the reasoning on it being an alpha game, which it wasn't, is absurd.