Norwegians is coming to town

[vykintas]

As some of you may already know, Norwegians is in the works and nearing completion.

But we better watch out - some occupations are a bit ambiguous so let's make a list and check it twice.

Builder:20A, Cottager:15C, Custodian:23A, Master Joiner:40B, Nobleman:98A - do we include artisan sheds? Rules say: "artisan sheds count as “sheds” but not as “houses.” ", but including at least Builder:20A feels natural imho.

Steward:42B is the reason why we do not let remove wood/stone from sheds, but do we extend this to include mason/lumberjack artisan sheds?

Fur Merchant:102B - rules say "For the alternative, you cannot take the 2 weapon cards." but I feel this is inconsistent and the occupation effect should be optional. Do we go against the official rules here?

And finally - occupation BAN LIST. I'm thinking to have an option to exclude some occupations, do we go with the ban list from harvest expansion? Make our own?

If you have questions, or play Norwegians and have noticed some ambiguities, let's discuss everything here.

[KeithHendricks]

It would be great to be able to use master joiner to activate bonuses in artisan sheds, but Gernot Kopke’s ruling on artisan sheds not being houses should stand for all these cards, however happy it would make players to be able to use these cards with artisan sheds.

Similarly, by a strict application of that rule, as artisan sheds are sheds, Steward would work with those sheds that accept lumber or stone.

The fur merchant ruling also seems to me to be without wiggle room.

Please include the optional ban list from Harvest.

Thank you for working on Norwegians! When will it be in alpha?

[GTSchemer]

Feast for Odin + Norwegians is possibly my favorite game! Congratulations on the project -- it is a ton of work so thanks for taking it up. My interpretations:

Builder 20A says "houses only", so no, not sheds / artisan sheds.
Cottager 15C says "sheds do not count", so artisan sheds do not count.
Custodian 23A says "sheds do not count", so artisan sheds do not count.
Master Joiner 40B says ""stone and long houses", so artisan sheds do not count.
Nobleman 98A says "stone or long house", so artisan sheds do not count.

Steward 42b says "in one of your sheds", so artisan sheds count.

Fur Merchant 102B says "you cannot take the 2 weapon cards" explicitly in the Norwegians rules, so official rules must be followed unless Frank from Feuerland approves the change. https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/202237 ... tion-board references it, it seems.

As long as it is optional to ban occupations, the suggested harvest expansion ban list might be good: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/252213 ... 5#36047225

However, bear in mind not all base game occupations are implemented either, last I checked.


Overall, I just wanted to emphasize again that Frank and Feuerland will likely need to approve any departures from the rules. Gernot has discussed some things, but Gernot is also experimenting with possible further expansions / updates so it may be important to double check with Frank with a list of expansion implementation questions, once they are collected.

[vykintas]

Thanks a ton guys for setting things straight! The BGG thread on revisions to professions was particularly insightful, I somehow missed that one.

I've 2 more points that I'd love to have clarified related to actions.
First - 5th column first action for 1-3 players sits in both "build houses" and "build ships" rows, but thematically it seems to be "build ships" only. Should this action trigger Princess:115B / Master Bricklayer: 116C?

Second thing is action spaces with two distinct things to do (bottom right of the board). I find the phrasing in the rulebook lax there and I'm unsure how to implement them exactly. We do have a precedent in the base game (trade whaling boat for a knarr and emigrate action), where trading the ships is optional, but you have to emigrate. How should we treat Norwegians actions? Top action passable, bottom one mandatory? At least one action mandatory? (Would need to redo base action in this case I guess for consistency?)

As for disabled occupations, I was unable to find out the reason for that. Disabled occupations seem completely arbitrary to me, and I'm thinking to have all occupations available (save for a couple that have no use in Norwegians), and have a banned occupations checkbox (or two, for both lists mentioned in Harvest).

EDIT:
hopefully Alpha is days away!

[KeithHendricks]

All dual actions in Norwegians are optional, in that you only have to do one thing on each action space. So you can’t take an action space and do nothing there, just to block it, but you can use, for instance, the 5th column exploration space to take Lofoten without building a whaling ship. I believe the precedent for this is actually in the base game rule book and it is clarified on BGG for Norwegians. I’ll post when I find it.

Princess is only triggered by a build houses action, so the swap ship action on the 1-3 Player board would not trigger a silverware.

[KeithHendricks]

The dual action rule is on page 9 of the base game rules: “You must use an action space immediately after you occupy it. To occupy an action space, you must use at least one of its effects (paying a cost is also considered an effect in and of itself).“

[GTSchemer]

Princess 115B and Master Bricklayer 116C: The glossary says "House Building" for both, but clarifies that a shed counts for 116 C.

This strongly suggests to me that building a shed (top left action) should also trigger 115B.
There is also the question, if you use the 1-3 player side and choose to build a boat, would it trigger 116C? I would assume not.


Unfortunately, there was a long debate at https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/215193 ... lding-shed and no final conclusion from Gernot or Frank. I suggest putting questions about these two cards on a list for Frank's review, since I assume he is the one approving release past alpha.


Regarding two distinct things actions in the bottom right:
* "may spend one silver and one wood to build a whaling boat" and "may additionally...[explore]". I strongly suspect you should be able to do either or both, but you cannot do nothing.
* "may [explore]...before paying two silver to emigrate' sounds more like the emigration is required to me. I suppose this is also consistent with the base game?


I think Frank should also be asked about the two-action cases. My own suspicion is that emigration is always required, but the other parts of those various actions are optional, as long as you do SOMETHING.

[GTSchemer]

All dual actions in Norwegians are optional, in that you only have to do one thing on each action space. So you can’t take an action space and do nothing there, just to block it, but you can use, for instance, the 5th column exploration space to take Lofoten without building a whaling ship. I believe the precedent for this is actually in the base game rule book and it is clarified on BGG for Norwegians. I’ll post when I find it.

I would be surprised if this were ruled in the base game.

In particular, the base game wording for the whaling boat + emigration action says:

Here, you may exchange a whaling boat* for
a knarr (if you wish), before using that knarr
or another large ship to emigrate (more on
emigration on page 17).

At least in English, this strongly implies emigration is REQUIRED, but the whaling boat exchange half is OPTIONAL.

[KeithHendricks]

GTSchemer, scroll up. I posted the appropriate ruling already from page 9, which indicates your intuition in this manner is incorrect.

[GTSchemer]

GTSchemer, scroll up. I posted the appropriate ruling already from page 9, which indicates your intuition in this manner is incorrect.

There is no need for rudeness. I read your post in question repeatedly. Let us review. You quoted:

“You must use an action space immediately after you occupy it. To occupy an action space, you must use at least one of its effects (paying a cost is also considered an effect in and of itself).“

In English, this wording indicates that using at least one of an action space's effects is a requirement for using an action space.

So yes, it is clear that you cannot take an action space and do nothing, but that is not what I was talking about, and is irrelevant as far as I am aware.