7WD Strategy vs Luck

[Wonderful Plays]

@ Wonderful Plays

Thank you for your thoughts and pardon me for the late reply. I was writing a reply a long time ago but then got busy with something else and then my whole post was lost and I was away for vacation Man, was I tilted

1. Wow. So if let's say 3 players (1800, 1700 and 1600) are playing against each other and let's say the 1800 gets the 1st place, 1700 gets 2nd place and 1600 gets 3rd place. Then isn't it that 1700 will score 0 Arena Points and 1800 wins arena points just like he/she won against both 1700 and 1600 imaginary 2 player games? Let's say it gives the 1800 player 15 Arena Points vs the 1700 and 10 Arena Points vs the 1600 player. Isn't 1800 then scoring 25 Arena points and the 1600 is losing 25 Arena Points? I would call that fair. I hope it works like that.

It doesn't. Instead of getting 25 points in this example you get around 8-12 I believe.

2. I might have worded this differently. But if there are 4 players in a pool and they each want to play 1 game: 7 Wonders -> 1 game total. 7 Wonders duel -> 2 games.

3. But the 2nd place didn't "loose" he was ranked lower, but he didn't play two seperate games with 1 win 1 loss, he gained 2 place in one game. I think the ELO score is not something that works best for multiplayer games. The main problem right now is that 4 player 7 wonders you can be at 2nd place and still loose ELO or gain 0. 2nd in 4player game is a good place, it should be a small win.

4. Regarding Victory Conditions: I found the best success in all-inning at some point. For me games are the most fun when you are constantly (at least thinking about) switch your strategy. In 7 Wonders I do that 2/3 of the game and 3rd age is very tactical. In 7WD after Age1 strategies are very often set in stone (against great players) and you are just executing.

5. Big thanks to providing your POV very fun to read. I'd just comment on 3 cards missing. It rubs me the wrong way that I can go for scientific victory (and it may be my best strategy % wise) and from the very start it wasn't possible to achieve it. I shouldn't be frustrated at that, but for some reason I am The instant loss also provokes worse feelings in me that point loss. In 7W I can be like: I lost by one coin, I played well it was close. In 7WD oh he flipped that here, we don't even see age3. It is funcionally the same, but my emotions are different.

I think 7WD is one of the most brilliant games made in the last decades, it just isn't something that I constantly reach out for after playing hundred times, I have to be in a mood for it. While 7W I can play anyday, just because it's so pleasant to just pick the cards, maybe it's because there is less stress/tension actually?

[Andras93]

Yeah this game is pure luck. Okay 3% brain 97% luck. Im played many 7 Wonders Duel and 7 Wonders and my win rate is "good" so i know what im talking about.

[silentProtest]

Yeah this game is pure luck. Okay 3% brain 97% luck. Im played many 7 Wonders Duel and 7 Wonders and my win rate is "good" so i know what im talking about.

first, nice necroing. 2nd no its not just luck, not even close.
Most deciding luck happens in vanilla when choosing/getting wonder and turn order. Then luck of getting resources and greens in age 1+2 that can turn the game upside down... but getting to specific cards and manipulating the odds to your favor is the whole idea.

And if you want way less luck, play with both expansions. Extremely rarely will you be in situations that there is 0% chance of winning, if you know what youre doing

(Id recommend getting decent at vanila, getting used to "agora only" for 10-30 games and use a cheat sheet for gods and plots that are in the game after, until you know all your options by heart )

[Sacha2142]

Yeah this game is pure luck. Okay 3% brain 97% luck. Im played many 7 Wonders Duel and 7 Wonders and my win rate is "good" so i know what im talking about.

Except if you select your actions purely randomly, saying that this game is almost pure luck and that your WR being good means that you know what you're talking about is quite incompatible.

[I_just_wonder]

(Id recommend getting decent at vanila, getting used to "agora only" for 10-30 games and use a cheat sheet for gods and plots that are in the game after, until you know all your options by heart )

I think you are a bit too good, so the end of your advice is not ideal for normal people haha !
As a normal decent player that does a lot of blunders, I personally recommend almost what you say but with 2 differences : keep playing vanilla game from time to time to stay fresh on the typical patterns in a light version when there is not too much to calculate, and play also 10 to 50 pantheon only games instead of using a cheat sheet for gods (2 reasons : a. getting used to purple improvement, token priority, turns without cards and other things pantheon does well, and b. appreciate more afterwards the things pantheon does not do well when agora fixes them, mainly the Râ imbalance and the green without counterplay problem)

[silentProtest]

(Id recommend getting decent at vanila, getting used to "agora only" for 10-30 games and use a cheat sheet for gods and plots that are in the game after, until you know all your options by heart )

[...] I personally recommend almost what you say but with 2 differences : keep playing vanilla game from time to time to stay fresh on the typical patterns in a light version when there is not too much to calculate, and play also 10 to 50 pantheon only games instead of using a cheat sheet for gods (2 reasons : a. getting used to purple improvement, token priority, turns without cards and other things pantheon does well, and b. appreciate more afterwards the things pantheon does not do well when agora fixes them, mainly the Râ imbalance and the green without counterplay problem)

some thoughts on that...:
- I would not recommend patheon only at all. the getting used to timing changes through gods is all well in good, but pantheon only is the most imbalanced ..because of lots of reasons, but the critical for learning is.. pyramid structure/card amount at age 1 and priority and non counter-ability of ra. you will learn the wrong lessons for both expansion versions here, namely: being first is preferable and how to take advantage of patheon only card pyramid, token placement IS important (WAY less of a factor in both expansions), Ra is overpowered, the player with Ra wins likely the game (not both expansions you are likely fine.. just see you dont lose because of timing control and maybe you can get some good enki token or neptune for it - or get another edge from the opponents investments and risks he took for getting ra)

- vanilla and both expansions have different patterns and priorities (most of all: - pyramid structures, relevant for each age, most important age 1; - worth of brown cards and resources overall; - worth of coins and timing changers). you can fall back to it for fun since its less calculation heavy, but Id argue you shouldnt calculate most of the time anyways when you get really good, and switching is counterproductive in the beginning of getting good. ... there is a good book Im gonna steal a concept from. Thinking, Fast and Slow by Kahneman. it refers to the automatic thinking as fast thinking (very low effort or rather very low cost for the organism, but sometimes not so high accuracy) - so youre goal, when getting good is to make your fast thinking very very good and precise without intervening with slow thinking. you intervene mostly for very crucial and complex situations, OR when you train your fast thinking. And when you train that, you try to find bigger concepts (there are a lot of hints to that to most variants of the game sprinkled through these forums ). To my point (sorry for text wall) - switching between vanilla and both expansions, especially when youre starting out, will bring your fast thinking and pattern seeing out of whack :\ and why I even recommend only agora in between, is so you get the chance to understand some major concepts and pattern changes (that mostly also apply to both expansions) before you have to understand those same concepts in way bigger depth and complexity in both expansions..

ps: its not just a cheat sheet for gods I recommend, but also for conspiracy cards. and for regular cards you can just scroll down (I still do that sometimes btw )

[I_just_wonder]

I think I understand what you say but I still believe it's too advanced of an advice.

At low to intermediate level (in case you're wondering I consider myself to be intermediate and you to be high, and to me not stabilised 300+ are still kind of low), I think pattern recognition is never strong enough to avoid calculations if you really want to win consistently against weak opposition. If it wasn't the case, you wouldn't find soooo many "strong players" that consider this game (no matter the version) to be essentially based on luck (and get mad at you when you think for more than 3s...) As a result, I don't think the layout differences are really the key issue for non expert players. They only get important for experts. You're not talking to a large enough audience with those subtleties imo. In a nutshell, I think we are all way too weak to apply your ideas correctly !

I know for a fact that against my own level the result is completely random if I don't calculate and I have an edge if I do in vanilla game. With expansions, the odds are heavely against me if I don't calculate and about even if I do. Maybe my brain is just too slow, I don't know. My personal experience with the full game is that I'm absolutely exhausted after every single match up !

[silentProtest]

I know for a fact that against my own level the result is completely random if I don't calculate and I have an edge if I do in vanilla game. With expansions, the odds are heavely against me if I don't calculate and about even if I do. Maybe my brain is just too slow, I don't know. My personal experience with the full game is that I'm absolutely exhausted after every single match up !

that is kind of my point. (in the beginning of that journey) to get used to outsourcing basic stuff to fast thinking (and sometimes critically rethink/retest that with slow thinking, to be sure youre on the right path) and use slow, deliberate, cost intensive thinking for higher concepts OR when you need extreme precision. because only using slow thinking will keep you plateaued indefinitely, just from my experience trying to explain some dozens of people (in 1 on 1 chats) that were motivated to become the top of the top...
and the exhaustion will prob happen regardless, even with better resource alocation, if youre really into the game (try to play competitively)... the difference is just it will get easier and faster with time, and you will see complex situations clear as day (but still keep questioning youre judgement from time to time!!) - but only if you do approach it in the right way (training fast thinking)**

two caviats to that. 1. imo 2. it might be one of many ways - just saw dozens of times how it doesnt work, and only a handful of times how it might work